There has been a storm recently about the ‘legitimacy’ of Sensual Bachata as a type of Bachata dance.
It started with a video, which called out Daniel and Desiree and other notable Sensual Bachata dancers for their use of ‘LambaZouk’ (though I’d personally say they take more from Traditional style). It then escalated to a defense of ‘Sensual Bachata’ by its creators Korke and Judith.
I’m not the first person to offer my opinions on the Sensual Bachata debate. However, I have issues with how the concepts of appropriation and appreciation are used. I also struggle with some misinformation that is circulating within these discussions (for example, the idea that Brazilian Zouk dance is a fusion of Brazilian dance and Caribbean Zouk).
What I’d like to do is bring a little bit more structure to the discussion of appropriation vs. appreciation – as well as some clarity to some of the misinformation circulating in the debate.
I welcome further input into the discussion, so if you would like to add a though please leave it in the comments.
First Things First – My Thoughts on the Debate
I have a number of issues with the discussion to date, and some small points I want to clarify before getting into the substantive discussion of appropriation.
I would also advise anyone who is speaking as an ‘expert’ in the discussion to make sure they fact-check before posting opinion as fact. Even if points are valid, they can be deeply obscured by opinions or a lack of knowledge masquerading as authority – and they can really mess up less-savvy people who are truly trying to understand the situation.
There are a few false or misleading ideas circulating in this debate that I would like to briefly clarify:
LambaZouk is a fusion of Caribbean Zouk dancing and Brazilian dances: False
Caribbean Zouk is a completely separate dance. Brazilians used Zouk music from the Caribbean – not Caribbean Zouk dancing – to create LambaZouk and other Brazilian Zouk streams.
If you want to know more about the history, the Brazilian Zouk Dance Council has some information.
LambaZouk is Brazilian Zouk: Partially True
LambaZouk is a type of Brazilian Zouk. Brazilian Zouk also includes Traditional (which arguably, Sensual Bachata draws far more from than Lamba) and Stylized Zouk (including Neo and other offshoots).
LambaZouk:
Traditional:
No other dances (besides Tango) have these internal problems: False
Actually, every dance does. If you don’t think they do, it’s just because no one’s made a viral Facebook video of their issues. Yes, this includes Swing dances, Salsa, and other super-popular styles.
Sensual Bachata is all Repackaged Brazilian Zouk: Inaccurate
There’s certainly a prevalence of Brazilian Zouk-like movements, but a Brazilian Zouk dancer would not look at a full video of Sensual Bachata and call it Brazilian Zouk. The original critique video cherry-picked the most Zouk-like clips to prove a point – but it’s not a balanced representation.
Sensual Bachata: Full Video
Now, on to the major discussion…
Appropriation vs. Appreciation
One of the central parts of the Bachata debate is about whether it is an appropriation of a cultural art form, or appreciation. There’s two veins to this discussion:
- Is Sensual Bachata appropriating the name Bachata?
- Is Sensual Bachata appropriating Brazilian Zouk dancing?
These are two separate issues. They should not be conflated with each other. Sensual Bachata may be appropriating one or the other, both, or neither.
Defining Appropriation
Simply put, ‘to appropriate’ in this context means ‘to steal’. Stealing, of course, means ‘to use/take without permission’.
There are several definitions of ‘appropriation’, but the one we are concerned about in the context of cultural appropriation is, essentially, cultural theft.
As a result, there are a few hallmarks of cultural appropriation:
- Use of this practice, term, or art form without permission of the group
- Use of a cultural practice, term, or art form without crediting the originating group – even if used with permission
Frequently (but not always), cultural appropriation also features:
- Using an important cultural element for personal or professional gain
- Using an important cultural element to further personal expression by claiming it as one’s own or right
- Using an important cultural element without an understanding of the significance, importance, or history of that element
- Misusing or bastardizing a culturally-significant element
While these are not ‘necessary’ to meet the definition of cultural appropriation, they frequently are centerpieces to discussion.
This is because ‘for profit’ use of cultural terms, art forms, or practices can be seen as ‘more offensive’ than simply ‘practicing’ for personal pleasure. It can also be because the misuse or incorrect application of an art form or cultural practice is offensive to people who developed the technique, art form, or style.
While most cases of cultural appropriation have to do with race-related uses of traditional costumes, customs, or art forms, the idea of cultural appropriation is not only tied to race. It can also be tied to a specific culture within a race.
Additionally, cultural appropriation is not limited to the misuse of cultural stereotypes. It can include anything that is the custom, tradition, or other expression of a specific culture.
Appropriation of Bachata
In order to determine if Sensual Bachata is appropriating the name ‘Bachata’, we must ask a seemingly simple question:
- Is Sensual Bachata using the name ‘Bachata’ without the permission of the term’s ‘owners’?
In the conversation about appropriation, whether the term is being used to ‘make money’ or to ‘ride on popularity’ is irrelevant. The only relevant point to the determination of appropriation is whether the name is ‘stolen’. Any outrage that comes from how the name is ‘misused’ is a result of the appropriation – but it is not the test for appropriation itself.
This is where the conversation gets tricky. First, we need to determine who owns the concept of ‘Bachata’. Is it Dominicans? Or, is it anyone who dances Dominican Bachata? Is there some other group who is a stakeholder in the term?
The problem is, the question of ‘ownership’ is almost impossible to answer. Without an answer to that question, there is no way to determine if Sensual Bachata is actually appropriation.
My gut instinct would be to say that the idea of Bachata is owned by the Dominicans. My reason for believing this is the most ‘suitable’ owner is because the dance style and music is an intrinsic cultural practice of the Dominican people. Therefore, whether Sensual Bachata is appropriating the name Bachata rests with the general outrage or good wishes of the Dominican people.
Even though I (personally) feel that it is appropriation, I’m not an owner of the term ‘Bachata’. Therefore, my opinion on whether the dance is appropriation is solely founded on my belief that the majority of the Dominican people with a stake in the name ‘Bachata’ feel that the dance is misusing the name.
Appropriation of Brazilian Zouk
First, I believe it is necessary to clarify that there are several veins of Brazilian Zouk. Although the original video referred exclusively to LambaZouk, I believe the intent was a comparison with Brazilian Zouk. For this article, I will replace the term ‘LambaZouk’ with the broader term ‘Brazilian Zouk’ to accurately encompass all elements of Brazilian Zouk that are used in Sensual Bachata.
When we are assessing the appropriation of Brazilian Zouk in Bachata, there can be a two-part test:
- Is Sensual Bachata using Brazilian Zouk without permission?
- If used with permission, is Sensual Bachata using Brazilian Zouk without giving credit to the originating group?
I’d argue that Sensual Bachata fails both these tests.
Most Brazilian Zouk artists that I know are not particularly pleased with the use of Brazilian Zouk within Sensual Bachata. If the majority of Brazilian Zouk’s ‘owners’ are not pleased with the use of Brazilian Zouk within Sensual Bachata, it is reasonable to assume that Sensual Bachata is using Brazilian Zouk without permission. Therefore, Sensual Bachata fails part 1 of the test.
For the second part of the test, I’ve regularly heard of Sensual Bachata artists stating that ‘they do not dance Brazilian Zouk, and are not using Brazilian Zouk in their Bachata’. If we assume that Sensual Bachata artists are using Brazilian Zouk elements, this is cause to fail the second test.
The possibility of similar – but completely unrelated – elements
Some Sensual Bachata artists claim that they are not using Brazilian Zouk movements. Rather, they claim they ‘found’ those elements on their own, and added them to the dance. Is it possible that this is the truth? Sure, anything’s possible. Is it likely? No.
I say it is not likely because of the sheer volume of Brazilian Zouk-like movements that I see in many (not all) Sensual Bachata videos. In particular, lateral, elastico, boneca, and other ‘signature’ movements appear with astonishing regularity for a dance that claims it developed those movements on its own.
While there is still a lot in clips of Sensual Bachata that is not similar to Brazilian Zouk, there is enough to reasonably infer the influence of Brazilian Zouk on Sensual Bachata dancing.
Ex: Daniel and Desiree
‘Badly-executed’ movements
Most Brazilian Zouk dancers and artists are also upset by the fact that the Zouk movements we see are often done in a very ‘sloppy’ way in Sensual Bachata. To many of us, the movements sometimes look downright unsafe.
But, these bad executions are not definitive of cultural appropriation. They may be an issue that is so sensitive because of cultural appropriation, but they are not the test for cultural appropriation itself.
Of course, if these artists got training in how to execute the moves and then added those movements to their Sensual Bachata, there is a high likelihood that the use of those movements would then be ‘sanctioned’ by Brazilian Zouk owners. Therefore, proper execution may have an impact on whether or not the dance does pass the actual cultural appropriation test.
“But other dances don’t have that problem!”
Yes, they do.
Brazilian Zouk has been used by just about everyone at this point. We have an issue with some (like Sensual Bachata), and not others (West Coast Swing). Salsa dancers have added elements.
We also have our own problems with the fact that there’s another Zouk dance. While Brazilian Zouk dancers did their best to mitigate the fact that they stepped on Caribbean Zouk’s name, we still struggle with the fact that our dance is called Zouk. Even though the two dances aren’t related at all, we still took their name. Therefore, it’s our job to reduce the damage as best we can.
Lindy Hoppers still fight about whether West Coast Swing gets to call itself a ‘Swing’ dance. The fact that West Coast Swing still calls itself swing irks some Lindy Hoppers who feel that the music isn’t ‘swing’ enough, and that the steps aren’t ‘swing’ enough.
All swing dance styles also have an internal struggle about recognizing the Black roots of their dance. What was born out of Black culture is now very dominantly a White (and sometimes other culture) passtime. There’s definitely some appropriation in there that needs to be carefully handled, especially given the history of Black-White relations in North America.
Samba de Gafieira dancers don’t view Ballroom Samba as ‘real’ Samba, and are generally quite unhappy that Ballroom dancers call that dance Samba. Cuban-style Salsa dancers fight over the ‘legitimacy’ of cross-body styles. Then, you also have the entire Kizomba vs. Neo-Kiz movement!
Point is, every dance has problems with appropriation. It’s growing pains. It still needs to be dealt with – and damage needs to be mitigated wherever possible.
“But they appreciate and love the style!”
You can appreciate and love something – and still appropriate it. If I appreciate and really like a song but download it illegally, it’s still stealing. I’m also infringing copyright if I remix the same song without permissions and sell it. If I go and get cornrows because I ‘really love the style’, I’m still appropriating Black culture.
Sensual Bachata artists can really ‘appreciate and admire’ Brazilian Zouk and even ‘dedicate their lives’ to Bachata – and still appropriate it.
It’s not an all-or-nothing thing. There can be all the good intentions in the world, and it can still be appropriation. You can truly love Sensual Bachata (or even teach it!), and still recognize that there’s a problem with how it is relating to Dominican Bachata or Brazilian Zouk.
“But their dance IS founded on the basics of Bachata!”
Well, they may certainly feel that way. It may even be a fact – but it’s up to the owners of ‘Bachata’ to determine whether or not it is similar enough (and respectful enough) of original Bachata to use the term Bachata in good faith.
The Owners and Potential Appropriators: Decision Time
There is also an onus on the ‘owners’ of Bachata. They need to decide if their dance is so sacred that offshoots based on their dance can still use the name Bachata. Whether they’re comfortable with that is their call – but, generally speaking, inclusion is a more powerful tool for promotion and growth than exclusion.
Personally, I don’t feel there is a problem with Sensual Bachata using the name ‘Sensual Bachata’. Do I think that it’s such a big deal that they use the name Bachata? No, I don’t. But, I also think that the promoters of Sensual Bachata can be more clear about how their dance is different from Dominican Bachata – and also about the strong influence of Brazilian Zouk.
But, it’s not my decision. I may have a stake in Brazilian Zouk because I am a teacher, but, at most, my share in the dance is relatively quite small. I certainly don’t have a stake in Bachata. It’s the owners of the dances that should determine whether or not it is appropriate, and whether they are comfortable with the current situation.
It is also up to the people using the dance to be respectful of the owners. It is up to them to recognize when they are hurting people in the community. It is up to them to recognize when the opinion of the people they ‘respect and admire’ are worth modifying their approach for.
If the creators of Sensual Bachata and the traditionalists want to resolve this issue, they need to work together to come to a common solution. They need to recognize no one is trying to hurt the other – but also need to recognize when their positions are hurting or hindering the growth of Bachata.
To me, if I respect and admire something, I’ll do my darndest to make sure that I’m not unnecessarily causing a rift. If I own something, I try to give room for interpretation and fair use – if the user is also giving due credit back.
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Have thoughts? Leave them in the comments below, and share the article!
Photo Credit: Brian De Rivera Simon, Tarsipix Studios
I don’t know many Dominicans, but the Dominican bachata teacher I know (that still lives in DR and only have visited my country so far) does not bash Sensual bachata for trying to appropriate the name. He say that that is not the style of bachata they dance back home, and he teaches more traditional Dominican bachata (which I am happy to learn more of). Bashing another style does not give your style more followers, it just leaves a bitter aftertaste in the mouth.
Actually, I see much more criticism from Brazilian Zouk dancers that think that Sensual bachata practitioners have ‘appropriated their moves’ (I have a hard time that they invented them out of thin air). Why so touchy? Come over here and start teaching good Brazilian Zouk. The only class I ever got to attend was sub-par and made me totally lose any interest in the dance. Unfortunately different styles have differently strong followings in different parts of the world. I would be the first to applaud other styles to be more present where I live.
As for ‘owners’ of a dance, I think that is outright ridiculous. Unless you trademark something and carefully document what is canon and what is not, it is hard to claim ownership of something like this, and even then it is no guarantee. And even if you did and could, is it desirable? No dance is stagnant, every dance evolves and every dance gets interpretations from its practitioners. When practitioners from one dance try out a new style it is more or less inevitable that they will start to mix in and merge styles. I am willing to bet that the Brazilian Zouk danced ten years ago differs slightly from the Brazilian Zouk danced today.
Speaking of unsafe movements, it is not the first time I read this statement. I wish someone would be more explicit and offer these sloppy sensual bachata practitioners helpful advice rather than just complain. To me it smells of elitism: ‘We know how to do it properly, you do not, you will even hurt yourself’. Someone show me that I am wrong.
I think that Daeil Cha’s blog post, which you link to, summarizes this ‘storm’ quite well. And it is just detrimental to the dance community as a whole, no matter what style you dance.
DIL, I agree that bashing a style does not give one more followers. It tends to run counter to productivity. However, discussions about appropriation still have their place in the theory of dance debate.
As for Brazilian Zouk: there are very signature movements in Brazilian Zouk that come from Lambada. These are often found in Sensual Bachata, which is why Brazilian Zouk dancers find it highly unlikely that they originated organically in the way they are executed in Bachata. I am not sure where these movements came from before the Lambada.
As for ‘ownership’, I do agree that determining ownership is extremely difficult – if not impossible. Unfortunately, that’s the central issue with the whole debate: without an agreed ‘owner’ of the dance (plural or singular), it’s impossible to truly assess appropriation or not.
Brazilian Zouk – and many other dances – are danced differently today than they were 10 years ago. The difference between evolution-only and evolution-as-appropriation comes down to the acceptance of the evolution by the origin community. You can have a dance that evolves and is accepted, which would make it not appropriation. You can have a dance that evolves and is seen as an imposter, which makes the tie to the original a form of ‘appropriation’.
Whether or not the appropriated dance *should* be viewed as legitimate is an entirely different conversation. That is down to reasonableness on the part of the origin community.
Re: Unsafe: Usually, people are referring to active vs. passive head movement. In Zouk, upper-body movements are largely passive and gentle, which keeps the neck and spine safe. In Sensual Bachata, I’ve seen (and felt) very rough, jerky leads, and seen a lot of necks that are being engaged to create hair flicks. These put the neck and spine at risk of pulls and injury. Does it happen always? No. Does it make Zoukers cringe when it does happen? Yes.
Division is detrimental to dance communities – in this, I agree. However, discourse and communication can also be used to build better dance communities. When people are hurting or upset, there’s almost always a reason. If we ignore these feelings, it leads to problems. If we ignore the intersection of appropriation with social dance, we are ignoring some issues that do have an effect on dance culture and theory. It’s fine to ignore controversy and ‘just dance’; many people prefer this approach. However, that doesn’t mean that issues don’t still exist.
I’m sorry but I think this is about race- bachata, kizomba, zouk all started from black communities in Brazil, Angola, Dominican Republic, Cuba etc etc etc. And all but one male in those videos were white. When I visit DR or anyone else the quality of dance is amazing compared to these “instructors” and is the true root of the dance however they are not profiting as these “instructors” are… what do we do about it is the question?
So Zouk, a dance that appropriated another dance’s entire name has a problem with another dance adding an extra adjective to its name (sensual) to describe a different style/branch of its base dance?
And a dance which stole a whole bunch of its moves from Lambada has a problem that another dance is using similar moves to the ones it originally took from Lambada?
Sounds pretty hypocritical don’t you think?
Salsa and Argentine Tango both use fleckerls out of Viennese Waltz, most of salsa actually comes from the original mambo – there is cross pollination of movements across all dances, and using them isn’t appropriation any more than using the colour purple in fabrics by anyone who isn’t French.
1 – The naming of Brazilian Zouk is a problem. The Zouk community *admits this*.
2 – Brazilian Zouk is also called Zouk-Lambada or LambaZouk (depending on style). It didn’t *steal* movements from Lambada – it essentially is the progression of Lambada because Lambada music was no longer played. For Zouk-Lambada specifically, they brought in other elements of dances and streamlined it for teaching.
3 – Appropriation in the Sensual Bachata debate is twofold: whether it is appropriating Brazilian Zouk, or whether it is appropriating the name Bachata. Cross pollination and inspiration are normal… but Sensual Bachata is definitely on the fringe with how dramatically large this effect is, to the point that many feel it *is* appropriation on one or both fronts.
My main problem is that (réal) Dominican Bachata is the swag, it is already sensual. The sensual bachata should have been called lyrical bachata in my opinion.
I have a hard time seeing how sensual bachata originated from Zouk. I can see however that it has been influenced by Zouk a lot. Also in less extent by hip-hop, and kizomba (probably more dances too).
Bachata sensual originated over 13 years ago in Cadiz. Zouk is not popular in Cadiz and 13 years ago it was probably even less popular. Youtube started in 2005 I believe.
Many sensual bachata basics as I learned them from Korke: media, rombo, culito, contra de cadera… are not similar to zouk but please correct me if I’m wrong as I’m not a zouk dancer. Body rolls and waves are similar to zouk but also similar to LA salsa too (which korke did dance).
Not sure if body rolls come from hip-hop, salsa or zouk.
Pretty sure that cambrés come from ballet as the name is french and that they’re older than me. Korke’s dance partners did dance ballet. If you see Dirty Dancing (the old one) there’s a cambré in the beginning of the final dance and zouk didn’t even exist.
And if you have time. If you google “bachata nueva keskya” you’ll see a guy that mixes bachata and hip-hop. Does that look like zouk?
Btw, it was nice to read an article written in such a respectful way.
Hey Max!
Just to clarify, I never stated that Sensual Bachata ‘originated’ from Zouk. I completely agree that it has been influenced by Zouk significantly – but I also don’t think that it is a ‘repackaging’ of Zouk as Bachata (I think I mention this in the article?)
The types of body rolls and isolations in Zouk are very similar to what is used in Sensual Bachata, but I see influence more in the modern head movement incorporation. Personally, I find that Korke and Judith do *far less* Zouk-like movements than many more modern Sensual Bachata artists – which would indicate less of a reliance on Zouk in the early days of Sensual Bachata.
Cambre is indeed a french term, and does originate from Ballet repertoire. However, Cambres in Zouk are often followed by a body wave as an exit – which is something that is often used in Sensual Bachata in a way very similar to how it is applied in Zouk.
Hey
Since you talk about owners and origin and owners. Korke is the creator of sensual bachata. When you talk about “sensual bachata” you’re talking about the dance that Korke invented. Of course every artist har its own style and might copy from other dances. There are even some famous sensual bachata dancers that mix salsa calena. Sensual bachata however is a dance invented by Jorge Escalona (aka Korke) in Cadiz in 2000/2001. I checked his biography to make sure the year was right.
I disagree that there was “less” reliance on Zouk in the early days. I just can’t see there was any reliance at all. I struggle to see how a guy in Cadiz with no presence of Zouk, with no Youtube and not having travelled to Brazil could copy a dance he had never seen and that he didn’t dance himself.
PS. I’ve seen more cambres followed by “rompo” than by waves. There’s a video of a guy called “mr. cambre”. That’s an encyclopedia of cambres in sensual bachata.
Just to be clear, I don’t believe I mention Cambre in the original article. I mentioned other Zouk movements; but not Cambre. Cambre was your contribution 😉
Your assertation that you do not see any reliance in early Sensual Bachata is fair. It may very well be the case that it didn’t contain Zouk; but I’m not an expert on the origins of Sensual Bachata. What I do see is what is presented today as Sensual Bachata – and the incorporation of a large amount of Zouk-style movements.
By most standards it is impossible to determine an owner. That we are in agreement of. Yet the origin community should be responsible for what is accepted evolution and what is appropriation. What is the ‘origin community’? Can you even determine the origin community when you cannot determine an owner? For me it is pretty much the same thing, an authority telling others how they should dance. Those claiming to be the origin community are de facto claiming ownership of the dance.
In my world view, they can only claim ownership of how the dance is danced *within* their own community, and the best way of doing so is teaching how.
Any other spawned-off community are free to dance the way they want. I sincerely hope that they are not claiming to dance the exact same dance (since they obviously are not), using exactly the same name (that is just confusing and dumb), and I hope that they are acknowledging other communities from which they borrow inspiration (but there is no law telling exactly how they should do this and to what extent, so I am afraid that on the acknowledgement part there will always be disagreement).
I would urge the parties that feel hurt that they dig deep down and ask themselves exactly what their issues are and how they show them. I am sure there is a reason, but by vocalizing it in the way I see them vocalized now, they in turn create reasons for others to get hurt. Ask yourself, if someone new comes into contact with a dance the like and start practicing it, without any knowledge of that dance’ evolution, only to later hear that ‘their dance’ is not legitimate, has the wrong name, should acknowledge where it ‘appropriated all signature moves’, etc. How do you think that makes them feel and react? Do you really think they will try to listen to those reasons and take them to heart? There are more creative ways to solve the issue that might even get these dancers to discover and fall in love with those other styles. If you want your message to go through, think twice of how you send it. Starting by questioning legitimacy is a sure-fire to get your message to fall on deaf ears.
As for the neck movement, thank you for the clarification. I can only talk out of experience. Where I dance, Bachata moderna/Bachata fusion (or whatever you like to call call the type of bachata that is danced in Europe) have slowly been giving room to Sensual bachata in most workshops. Still, I have not been to a single workshop where such a movement has been taught and the teachers have not been *extremely* explicit and strict in how these types of movements should be lead and executed. Never with force and never jerky, the latter is in fact the opposite of the effect the teachers wanted with the slow sensual move.
Does this mean all teacher emphasize this? Most likely not, I believe I have had the good fortune to have excellent teachers. Does that mean that all practitioners can perform this correctly? Heck no! Even if lead properly, I have had follows that throw themselves around thinking that my indication of a headroll should be quick and snappy, neither following the lead nor the timing of the music and finishing two+ beats early! (ie, the equivalent to throwing yourself backwards at the first hint of a dip) It does not make Zoukers cringe, it makes every dancer with a bit of knowledge and musicality cringe. For me, I learned to never try to do those moves with that specific follow until she had improved her level quite a lot.
But yes, active head movements exist. If used they should be lead properly and with utmost care, treated on the same level as dips or other technically advanced tricks. Anything else is irresponsible.
I am not surprised that a body wave often is used as an exit after a cambre in Sensual bachata. The way I was taught Sensual bachata, the body roll or rather the smaller body wave is the most common way to get back to the standard count when you have done a movement/step that makes you finish early. You could prolong the timing of for example a cambre to avoid the body wave, but if you dance to the music that might sometimes be a too slow movement and you want to keep the flow and the ‘dot at the end of the sentence’ by accentuating the entire movement with a body wave.
Does this mean that it comes/is appropriated from Brazilian zouk? Don’t know.
Totally fair. I actually never mention Cambre in my original post. That was a contribution in the comments from Max.
It may be that the cambre with a body wave originated independently of Zouk. However, what I see in many modern Sensual Bachata videos is an incorporation of a larger amount of Zouk movements.
I think if we are at the point of arguing over the speed of a movement belonging to one dance or another the while argument is a joke.
honestly, i see this article too much as somebody who like Zouk saying the bachata copy everything; it s versus my main rule: “dance and leave dance”, and i wouldn`t express any critcs if it wouldn`t be in a matter that i feel competent; my first impression: the article and all comments shows that person who writes has not enough competences in bachata sensual or had really bad experiences dancing with wrong person.
I`m living in brno where the comunity of zouk is 1 of the strongest i have seen in all europe, and i`m studing bachata in any form from years; i have no interest to learn zouk for a simple reason and that`s not only my idea but a simple truth that express the idea of many people in spain, italy and czech rep as well: zouk has too weird moves and a large number of people don`t identify theirself with the person they see in the youtube video and most important they don`t want to look like the people they see on the dance floor,
while if you see daniel y desiree , people want to be like them.
obviously not everybody think in the same way but that the reason in europe there are so many bachata congresses with thousands people and not so many zoul congresses.
so here it comes the main point that people must understand, few simple rules of dance and/or facts:
1) DANCE IS ABOUT FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION
2) if it s a nice move anybody want to do it and possible they will try to improve it or personalize it, this has gone forward since it exist the dance;
people who dance salsa has never accused bachata to steal dance moves…
3) any dance is influenced and it s influencing other dances in same time,since the origins and in last years is a faster process;
4) any dance is free to use body rolls, body isolation moves and waves, and zouk was not the first on this and i don`t see reason why zouk or brazilian people think to be the owners of that; but i have seen zouk dancers teaching zouk figures in bachata classes
5) while brazilian people are used to do weird moves in any dance they have,
bachata sensual and bachata fusion is made by professional dancers that cares to make it looking cool and nice; these people has often more competences than just bachata and try to find always more complicate moves to teach.
about the comments that bachata sensual look very rough, jerky, if there are not exact example is not possible to reply, i can say that often the video we see in youtube are example of dance after a lesson and people make mistakes or sometimes they choose too fast songs that would fit with the matter teached in the lesson but it doesn`t fit with body rolls and similar things, but i would never say that Daniel would be dangerous dancing with Desiree; for sure bachata and zouk are not easy dances and they need long time to master it , understand it and they must be perform with attention and respect of the partner
Hi Antonino,
This article had nothing to do with “Zouk is better than Bachata”. This article was a discussion on the academic term ‘appropriation’. I’m very clear in the article that there are very specific things that need to be met in order to prove or disprove appropriation. I also mention that it is impossible to pin down a ‘truth’ with any certainty. It has nothing to do with ‘bad experiences’ with Sensual Bachata.
I do mention my personal opinions, which are influenced by what I have seen expressed by the majority of people in Bachata and Zouk in the debate.
As for your assertation that there are not a lot of Zouk congresses… there are 😉 Zouk has a high barrier to entry, and is also a much newer dance than Bachata – but it is growing. It may not be your cup of tea, but there are many who *do* enjoy the aesthetic and look of the dance. Personally, I’d rather look like Zouk dancer Evelyn Magyari than Desiree – but that’s just my personal feelings. You may feel that all we do are ‘crazy, weird’ moves; but there are a lot of people who would disagree with you. I’d be interested to know exactly what moves you think are ‘weird’.
I have never asserted that Zouk dancers ‘own’ body rolls and waves. I’m not talking about body rolls and waves as the ‘items’ that are stolen from Zouk. I actually specifically discluded them in the analysis because it cannot be shown without reasonable doubt that those came from Zouk. However, the style of head movements/head flicks/tilted turns are very much signature Zouk items. I cannot think of any other dances which use these types of movements in a lead/follow relationship in social dancing.
The idea that dance is freedom of expression is an oversimplification. There is a lot of ‘cultural baggage’ in dance. Some people choose to ignore this baggage – but it doesn’t mean that it exists. Traditional Bachata purists probably wouldn’t have any issues with Bachata Sensual if it wasn’t named ‘Bachata’. It’s about the name and culture.
Influence and evolution are great – but it is up to the dancers who are being influenced and evolving the dance to do it in a way that respects the roots – or to note when it deviates from the roots. The jury is out on Sensual Bachata, but it is a discussion.
Quite frankly, I don’t understand your point 5. If you are insinuating that there are no professional dancers in Zouk with more competencies than just Zouk – you’re wrong. Many are classically trained, or crossovers from other styles. There are also Zouk dancers that try to create new things. They also want to make things look cool and nice. That’s not a ‘Bachata’ thing.
Well i agree with you, but its great to see people invent their own styles and moves just dont call it a name that really has nothing to do with it really.
Well except that sensual bachata, which incorporated body rolls and waves, was invented in Cadiz by a guy who had never seen Zouk in his life.
So those moves weren’t appropriated from Zouk.
I’ve seen body rolls in jazz ballet, contemporary, urban, hip hop, even pole dancing – did all of these dance forms steal from zouk or is it just a naturally sexy way to move your body?
Just a note…. what Korke and Judith originally began seems a far cry from what I see from current Sensual Bachata couples. On a whole, I see dramatically less “Zouk-like” things in their dancing. And, at this point, it’s almost a certainty that a Zouk trick will start appearing in Sensual Bachata videos within a couple months.
For the last time… it’s not about simply having body rolls.
i explain you 2 things really easy and fast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp9G5PUZi3A
read the title of this video , this guy dance zouk and does zouk moves, he is been honest, and singular, as there are not so many people doing this in the world:
Axel & Romina l Climax – Usher l Bachata Zouk Nivel Sexy ,
this person has nothing to do with Daniel y Desiree, Korke y Judith and has nothing to do with professional dancers in my opinion cause the way he touch the breast of the lady while dancing is porno and not sensual, plus the fact that is pretty visible the lady doesn`t even wear a bra,
this person has never partecipated any bachata competition, and did what million of people in the world does in last time, make a video and post it in youtube, with result that to dance soft porno makes your video more interesting, so for this what do we go to insult the champion of the world ,, or any dancer of bachata or zouk or their zouk teachers for the quality of their zouk moves?
the video that somebody posted in facebook is TELLING LIES, CAUSE THERE IS WRITTEN THAT it should be bachata sensual , WHILE IS NOT TRUE.
I will tell you more, the same page created in past months a fight inside the kizomba groups, so it s simply people who get money, attention and followers from making wars and not useful discussions about dance.
I have been in dominican republic and i can tell you that dominican people are amazing and poor people, and they are simply happy to dance basic steps and simple things; this is not the same in the rest of the world where are simply tired immediately to repeat the same steps over and over. coming back to the main video that accused the bachata sensual: the story that 2 ladies from romania couldn`t dance bachata in dominican rep cause they don`t dance bachata, it s stupid, silly and just an excuse to start their advertisement campaign .
last info to know: people who argue about bachata dominican and sensual are European / USA based, and i have an example of facebook groups of bachata dominican made by north european person, who is inciting anger and hate to any other style of bachata.
The fact that you hate Zouk is evident. That’s fine; you’re entitled to your opinion. However, there was nothing ‘porno’ that I saw in the link you have sent. Plus, who really cares if the lady ‘wears a bra’?
However, what he does looks very similar to many videos I have seen from Sensual Bachata artists.
I have also been to the Dominican, and have danced with people in the Dominican. Yes, they are happy with their basic steps. However, your assertation that the conflict is to ‘make money’ is about as far from the truth as one could possibly get. People don’t go into dance to make money – ever. There’s no real money in it.
A very, very small percentage of lucky people manage to make a decent living at it. However, they’re the exception – not the rule!
Dance is expression…expression is a personal and individual thing…. and anyone is entitled to express themselves through dance using any elements they chose, from any dance styles they have experienced..
But like this article points out, it’s in the naming and then profiting from these names that things get messy.
As a social dancer I can use any and all influences in my social dancing…but as a teacher and possible ‘creator’ of a style it would be unfair of me to claim something as my own without accrediting the sources from which ‘my style’ has developed, and name it in such a way that it can be confused with its influences…
How about this:
Avoid trying to create your own dances from cultures you’re not from. How about that? That’s really the issue. The majority of you folks on this thread really know nothing about these dances and music. It doesn’t matter if one is partially or fully influenced by the Caribbean or not because they all are connected back to Africa. These dances and music are our culture and should be respected as such. You don’t see anyone creating their own dances from Polynesian Islands or even the Chinese, why in the Americas? Oh, because you want to look cool and edgy. It’s like those famous Asian Voguers who created a style and didn’t even state how they came up with it — which was basically from Gay NY Blacks & Islanders Voguers. You see, you can say that this dance is different because in truth it is, but its foundation and inspiration stems from Bachata/Zouk/Kizomba and whatever other African made dances that are there. It seems like appropriation is a lifestyle for some folks when Blacks produce something — and this includes Popular Culture. There are so many Slavic, Slovakian, Irish, etc dances yet no one wants to create their ideas from them. Why is that? Why do people feel the need to disrespect and tie themselves to something they are no culturally connected to? I could care less from an opinion of one man that he does not find it offensive if they call it Sensual Bachata. The fact is, it is offensive and the dance is as well for its “sloppy moves.” People are getting annoyed. It is just like the gentifercation of music genres in Popular culture. All the creators were Afro-Americans and then you had noticeable Euro-Americans who came along the scene since racism and bigotry was on a mass scale, coming with new names and twists in their songs stolen from the Afro guy or woman. This happened to Jazz, Rock, Country, Blues, R&B, etc. If anyone of you take a Jazz & Popular Culture class, you would understand how it happened and it is still happening. We are annoyed. We Caribbean Islanders, Afro-Americans in both the North and South continent, Africans from Africa, and elsewhere. We don’t want to see a fusion or some type of appreciation of our dances. We don’t. Either you respect and join in on the fun, or make dances of your own form your culture <<< and I'm not talking about Pop Culture which the world has been consuming. I'm talking culture which is simple and founded in villages. Just like this Polish Jew called Baumen once said. This discussion is only leading to one result, it is the result to appropriate justifiably by saying "oh, since the dance is different, it isn't the same," like duh, but its blueprint is what you needed to make yours, right? I digress. Then people like to use the excuse that art — dances and songs are for everyone; which holds some truth and lies. I don't see anyone creating dances like in Egypt where you hold a sword by your throat and body while dancing or traditional German dances. Why is that? Because people choose what they want <<< in order to change and benefit from it. It's not even about money for some, it is about recognition and fame. Just like in Europe, many countries like Poland, Germany, Neatherlands, France, etc having Kizomba/Zouk/Bachata clubs to learn how to dance. Of course, when someone learns the dances, what do they do after? They play with it to add their signature on it. It is the same like in Sensual Bachata. I'm so over this. It is disgusting. Just stop. No other culture experiences robbery like the ones in the Americas. You guys just need to love the dances and stay in your own lane and not try to think about becoming famous because if fame is what you want, it rightfully belongs to its creators and people, not outsiders. The end.
Also to the one commenter who said Dominican people are poor and amazing, come again? Please don't act ignorant. Everyone isn't poor, the same as for the U.S., downright disrespectful. Everyone in D.R. dances in their own signature but it is still bachata. Not only that, you can tell that the cultures in the Caribbean have always been connected to one another because Cuban dances are similar. Instead of moving forward, the move leftward or rightward. Anyway, if you're not apart of our culture, don't spit on it while taking it in.
“it would be unfair of me to…name it in such a way that it can be confused with its influences”
You mean like Brazilians naming their dance Zouk – exactly the same name as the Caribbean one?
ROFL…
The whole name of Zouk *is* an appropriation problem in Brazilian Zouk. That’s why it’s more appropriate to call it Brazilian Zouk or Zouk-Lambada. This has been an ongoing discussion in the Zouk community, even though the initial naming was, according to the people who started using that name because they were dancing Lambada to Zouk music, accidental. So, the attempt is being made to more appropriately differentiate it from the original Caribbean Zouk because it *is* a different dance entirely.
I am Dominican and I have been looking for this topic, this is the first place that showed in the results, and yes this is cultural appropriation, take a dance from another country add the word “sensual” to it cause your are the one that knows, dance it however and then market it, common!
While bachata and merengue are distinct dances, bachata evolved out of a combination of merengue, bolero, and other influences. Merengue’s African roots are therefore also relevant to bachata, while many bachata texts also discuss merengue at least in passing.